TT: Wikipedia whitewashers!
When associates of Diebold, Wal-Mart, Monsanto, the Mormons, the Church of Scientology and the Republican Party see something embarrassing on their Wikipedia page, they don't worry much about the truth content of the information, or about Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy, they just remove the irksome entry and often put text more favorable to them in its place.Time to add another to the list of whitewashers. Can you guess who?
All links and most in-text references to sources critical of TT beliefs and practices were removed from the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia page back in May (I restored the link to this page). The nice thing about Wikipedia is that history of all edits are preserved. Here are some egregious edits made by someone identified only by their IP address (70.181.222.24) which traces to the Cox broadband service in Atlanta. Here are others which add text that only a TTer or a true apologist for them could write. Other edits were made by someone logged in as "Davidderush," the well known TT internet pit bull.
An ex-TTer friend of IOTTC learning of this commented: "What happened to 'Count it all joy when others speak ill of you...'?"
Funny how those most dependent upon the free speech protections embedded in our laws rush to censor other points of view when given the chance.
UPDATE 9/05/07: Well, they've been caught red handed again.
First the good news: since I wrote this article, many of the original external links to the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia article have been restored. Among these was the link to the "twelvetribesteachings" site that archives a collection of hundreds of "teachings" of Spriggs as well as the TT's Intertribal News. Trouble is, these documents were not meant for outsiders' eyes and are a public relations liability for the Tribes. Here is to be found Spriggs' unvarnished eschatology and views on child discipline, blacks, gays and the role of women. No one takes credit for making available this mountain of material, although one might guess that this is the work of an ex-TTer. Interestingly, the mystery compiler/publisher says nothing negative about TT, letting the reader draw their own conclusions from the documents themselves. The TT will never officially claim these as authentic, but when I showed selections of a few to several TTers, none expressed any suspicion that they were less than genuine. It would be a monumental feat to forge, or even alter, all these hundreds of documents. The writing style for most of them is the same and it's clear to me these have a single author. Many are on points of doctrine and aren't particularly scandalous or noteworthy, while others will stand the hair on your head.
Someone (anonymously, leaving only an IP address) once again removed the link to this site and offered a pathetic rationale for doing so on the discussion page. The editor Seldom4 smartly traced the IP address to Parchment Press, a TT-owned business in Coxsakie, NY, chided this perpetrator, and restored the link to TwelveTribesTeachings site as before.
When will the Twelve Tribes organization learn the Twelve Tribes Wikipedia page doesn't belong to them?
posted by Aloysius Horn at 2:05 PM
27 Comments:
Way to blow it out of proportion. From what I saw all they did was change the racism section to point out that they have people of different races in their communities which makes the claims of racism kind of ridiculous. It's a valid point because they do have members of various races and they are treated as equals.
I notice that most of your posts focus on the teachings of Spriggs but in my dealings with the TT they appear to act on them very rarely. I think you are judging thousands of people by one man's words, which seems unfair to me.
Wrong on all counts.
You obviously didn't examine the links to the page's history and to the changes made by the mystery individual from Atlanta who removed links to sites critical of TT, including this one. The Twelve Tribes teachings site, the link to which was removed, is not even critical of TT. It has just made available Spriggs' teachings that are not supposed to be for public consumption. I showed a number of these to current TTers and not a one ever claimed that they were other than genuine.
TT does allow African Americans to join TT: only those who denounce the civil rights movement as "evil" and accept Spriggs' teaching that God intended blacks for servitude to whites. This hardly absolves them of the charge of racism in our opinion.
As for your point that Spriggs' teachings have little effect on the daily life of TTers, ask them next time why they balance on stools to defecate. Did the general membership vote that policy in?
Keep in mind that the face TT shows to the outside world and the reality of life in TT attested to by many ex-TT visitors to this site are very different.
this really is a site full of garbage and slander and hearsay anyway... i applaud the twelve tribes for trying to remove this site of garbage from their wiki...
If there is nothing but garbage, slander & hearsay on this site you'd think it would be easy for you to point out examples and make an argument for your position. The fact that you and other TT apologists never do is telling.
It's telling that we have interests besides criticizing other people's religious beliefs? It's your choice not to eat at their establishments and I respect that, but I have little respect for a site that bases claims off things it found on the internet or was e-mailed. If someone wants to join the Twelve Tribes that should be their choice as it should be their choice to be educated about it or not. Hopefully it is the former but sites like yours really don't help matters. I have no religious tendencies whatsoever and yet I manage to respect other's beliefs, including the Twelve Tribes.
You said:
Keep in mind that the face TT shows to the outside world and the reality of life in TT attested to by many ex-TT visitors to this site are very different.
Exactly. You're only insider views of life in the Twelve Tribes are e-mails you've gotten from supposed ex-members. They may be true, they may not, or maybe, as is likely, a mixture of both. Correct me if I'm wrong but you were never a member of the Twelve Tribes so I'm sorry if I choose to believe the happiness I see on their faces and that of their children rather than anonymous text on a website.
You're just creating more hatred and intolerance in the world which I understand to be something you oppose. In times such as these more hate is the last thing we need.
I agree with you that hate is the last thing we need. I and the other IOTTCers have never urged anyone to hate TTers. Many are people with no particular hostility towards others searching for a meaningful life who have been misled and taken advantage of.
While I don't hate TTers, I do detest the ideology that TT promulgates which is one of intolerance, patriarchy and complete loss of personal liberty. I detest the absurd notion that in preparation for "martyrdom against the Beast" children should never be exposed to non-TT books or ideas and that they should beaten with switches if they exercise their imaginations.
It's Spriggs who says that homosexuals "deserve death" and that MLK was full of "evil." You'll find no such language on this site. If you're looking to give an intolerance award to someone, best look to the leadership of TT.
TT is not just a small group of people with weird beliefs who wish to keep to themselves: their recruitment effort is enormous with their bus tours, presence at outdoor concerts across the country, "Free Papers", and their slick website. Cafés like Maté Factor are central to this effort. Because they're actively affecting the community in which we live and doing their best to erode societal values most of us cherish, we have a responsibility to push back (in ways that respect their rights, obviously).
We didn't go looking for a group like TT to protest, THEY came to our backyard here in Ithaca, NY. As long as they are down the street promoting a Taliban-like social order and child martyrdom to beasts (call it religion if you like), IOTTC will be here urging a boycott of Maté Factor and other TT businesses.
As I prepare to be a contributing writer to this site, I have to defend the criticism aimed at this Web page.
This Web page offers a plethora of information on the Tribe--information one needs to balance the plethora of information the Tribe distributes.
The Twelve Tribes is a dangerous cult that brainwashes young people and promotes a close-minded society that only promulgates negativity and hatred. By looking at them face value, I can see why many people would deny that.
Erica, this is not a religion. The Twelve Tribes do not follow a "religion." It's a philosophy, one created my a troubled man who felt alienated from the traditional church and created this cult out if spite.
Now, the Twelve Tribes owns millions in real estate and has brainwashed young people into joining by showing them the smiles and the "freedom."
And once they are in, and have that free bed at night, and they alienate these people from their families, turning them into robot speakers "LAke of Fire" dominionists, it becomes quite apparent that the Twelve Tribes is probably one of the unhealthiest creations on earth, next to satanism.
No one cares if these folks created their Cult and lived happy lives. But what is astonishing is what they promote and how it completely contradicts what religion is supposed to be about. This is why you see so many people decry the traditional Christian Churches who denounce gays and homosexuality. Common folks, intelligent, open-minded majority of people, are just tired of this crap.
Well, the Twelve Tribes takes it two steps farther with their ideology. And I suggest, rather recommend, you just glance at the material.
Sure, we all see the smiles and the happy children. But we also know about the harsh punishment, their lifestyles and beliefs. The writers here go beyond face value and dig deeper to provide the other side---the darkside of the cult.
And this offends them so much. Because they've been able to succeed on their nice buses, coffee drinks and real estate monguls to build a fortress of money. How funny that one of the basic tenets they have is to deflect materialistic instincts.
But there is a far deeper sense of this cult that many people just don't see, including you. This Web site helps turn the lights on.
I just hope these people can find their way out.
I see that neither side will ever agree on this matter and that this argument could go on endlessly, especially since most of what you say is based on hearsay ("Taliban-like?" Please!). However I will make a few final points and then leave it at that.
I'm not sure what fairytale world you have been living in, but intolerance and loss of personal liberty is something happening everywhere and in most religions. At least the TT is willing to take in people that would normally be shunned by other groups, unwed mothers, drug addicts, etc. I've seen mothers read non-TT books to their children, I've seen them watch TV on occasion, and I've seen them use their imaginations without punishment, all of which are things many overzealous Christian parents often forbid their children from doing.
I'm not sure I would call their website "slick" but anyone with half a brain should be able to read their words on their website or in their papers and think critically about them. You are putting very little faith in the human race by assuming people are so susceptible to their recruitment methods. I think a better method of recruitment is showing people the happy and hardworking people who live in these communities so I'm curious exactly how they are eroding your societal values? I can't speak for the community in your area but the community here are ideal citizens who work hard, pay their taxes, and help their neighbors, which is more than I can say for most U.S. citizens.
Anonymous, thanks for your recommendation that I read more on the subject of the TT, but I have been researching them for years, before I ever met them, so I don't think my knowledge of the matter is lacking. I am curious what gives you the right to judge what a religion is though, seeing as how by definition one person belief's can be their religion.
As for the matter of "brainwashing," no reputable scientific or psychological organization has confirmed that it is real so I really can't agree with you that these people are members against their will. Many TT members still have relationships with their families and I think your basis for that argument comes from ex-members who claim the TT tried to cut them off form their families. The writers here aren't digging deeper, you're just rehashing things you Googled without actually getting to know your subject. If you actually knew them you wouldn't be talking about how they are materialistic or just as bad as Satanists. I hope Suanne Gumienny's documentary will finally provide a much-needed objective view on the subject.
I judge people by their actions, and if I were to compare the creators of this website and the Twelve Tribes, who do you think would seem the better person? Don't promote lies and then pretend you are somehow preforming a public service, you aren't fooling anyone. This isn't Jonestown, no one is being kept there against their will. If they were going out and harming these groups they supposedly hate I would feel differently, but they aren't. They are living their lives and not intruding into others', which is more than I can say for most religions.
Erica,
The very fact that we encourage responsible comments sympathetic to TT here should tell you something about our motives and sense of fairness. I will note that other anti-Twelve Tribes sites do not do this and that TT's own site lacks a comments forum.
We will never post something we know to be untrue here. We do, obviously, have to rely on what ex-TTers and outside observers tell us go on in the communities. It is not fair to characterize honest accounts based on personal experience with the group as mere hearsay. Of course it is possible that someone with an axe to grind will feed us bad information. If and when this is pointed out to us, we will publish a retraction. You say we are promoting lies. That is a serious charge. Can you be specific about what stated in this blog is a lie?
I stand by my characterization of the group as Taliban-like. All analogies are imperfect, but the similarities are obvious and chilling, even if (thankfully) TT has never had the opportunity to govern a country. (BTW, do I have to have personal experience of the Taliban to be critical of them? Is all information about the Taliban not provided by a member in good standing of the Taliban to be dismissed as hearsay?)
As for the TT not intruding into people's lives, you need to talk to those who no longer have a relationship with a loved one or family member who has joined TT. (See the blog post "How I lost my sister" below.) I haven't heard such complaints about any other religious community here in Ithaca.
the fact is we and others know garbage when we see it and dont need to point it out... you do that already with this site... you are the spinster here... putting quotes areound words like "death" and "evil" dont add credibility to anything you say... in fact this entire site lacks credibility all together... why dont we and others 'like' me respond to your garbage ? that is why... it is garbage... complete and utterly garbage... you do a great service however... you gather together those like you and keep them from visiting these hard working god fearing folks in the first place... they are less distracted by haters like you and have time to actually love one another... and raise their children... maybe , just maybe your garbage spinster words will insite the hatred you so covertly try and disguise here and invoke someone to actually harm these people... thinking what you spin here is actual true... then i suppose you will have ultimately succeeded... as for this site... judging by the fact your last many posts have had 0 comments its telling of what people really see in it... so ill leave it at that... and like erica, ill just cast you off to the bin bucket of the internet... as anyone else who is not a hater will do...
Oh dear.
Personally, I find this site to be VERY informative. I live about five miles away from one of their major locations in the northeast, where they also own a store, two restaurants, and the headquarters for BOJ construction. From what I've seen with my own eyes, everything on this site is true. I've seen the cowed children as well, and watched a mother recoil in horror when my 18-month-old merely said hi to one of her TT children. At one time I seriously considered staying with them to see what they were more about, but even cursory research turned up scary stories about broken families, abused children, and bankruptcy. Once you're in, there's no easy way out.
And they do mislead in their recruitment efforts. They use their businesses for major outreach and recruitment. They target more "hippie" locations and events-- the organic foods, loose clothing and long hair initially appeal to people who embrace that aesthetic and make it seem like they're just another commune. I've been very concerned about a friend of mine who has a very high interest in, and close association with, the local tribe. She's pretty much against everything they REALLY stand for (aside from the earthy-crunchy lifestyle) but totally overlooks it.
erica said"If someone wants to join the Twelve Tribes that should be their choice as it should be their choice to be educated about it or not."
But she failed to mention the children that are dragged into this group who have no choice. Nor does she mention the spouses, children or both that are abandoned by the other spouse who has been encouraged to save their soul and leave the "unbelievers" and I'm not talking about unbelievers of the Christian faith but the unbelievers of the Twelve Tribes fanatical teachings.
I AM an ex-member of nearly a decade and can attest to the validity of the facts posted on this site.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
The TT has taken over the "Wiki" page for them and Spriggs's page too and have turned it into a "Evangelistic tool" and directory for all their propaganda sites and "freepapaers". I sure wish someone with the skills and talent could once again bring back the supposed "neutrality" of the pages.
I wanted to post this here to bring it back from my early days of "opposing" the Tribes and their destructive ways.
"The rise of "Yoneq" and the hardening of the new wineskin..."
Every word that was written here is of optimal importance for anybody that is thinking of joining or has left, to read.
I posted this 5 years ago while I was at Bob Pardons place http://meadowhaven.org/
for those exiting cults... and the words still ring true, maybe even truer today...
http://www.factnet.org/discus/messages/3/6119.html
quote from the above letter:
"Grace happens in spite of the legalism
of the leadership. But grace doesn't stop because
you left TT. You can't bottle up grace. It is there
because it's in your hearts. The "law" says grace is
a part of a specific physical community, a specific
locality, a certain leadership. . . the spirit of
God's grace goes where there is love: where there is
being practiced the simple, but profound ethical
principles found in The Sermon On The Mount.
Spiritual authorities who base their authority
on some system of "law", are disturbed by an attitude
of grace. The leaders of the law want to make the
false claim that they somehow own grace, have the only
legal spiritual franchise on it. . .that they alone
get the chance to dispense it to whom they choose;
but, as the old blues song says: "it ain't
necessarily so!"
While writing all this, it looks like Gene
eventually became the same type of Christian minister
that he grew up under in the small Alliance church his
family attended in Chattanooga, Tennessee:
controlling, legalistic, overly-critical, preacher who
does everything he can to maintain his control over
his little flock. And I doubt that Gene can even see
it. I'm sure in his own mind, he is still fighting
for God. I think he has been so busy for the past 30
years building this organization that perhaps he
hasn't had time to sit down and reflect about what he
is doing and why he is doing it.
So, enjoy your chopsticks. . . but it's OK to eat w/
spoons, forks or even with your hands. Just give
thanks for what you do have. It's all God's good gifts
of grace."
respectfully and sincerely from the desk of David T Pike
nabashalam@yahoo.com
A member name Kafir once left the Tribes community I was living in and took a community business credit card with him and charged approx. $3000 while he was away from the commune with his wife Tamidah and family. When he returned to the community nothing was done about it. No repentance, nothing. This is am example of the double standard in the Tribes. If you've been there long enough, you can get away with almost anything.
It's like Geroge Orwell's book "Animal Farm." We're all supposedly equal in the Tribes, "but some are more equal than others!"
When I lived in Island Pond in the community, the community had been warned by local authorities not to remove asbestos from a building they owned unless they had licensed professional do it. Well, the Tribes went ahead and had their men do it anyway, with just cheap dust masks to protect them. While the work was going on, someone reported the Tribes of breaking the law in this way. At the time we thought it likely a fellow Tribes members had reported this to the local authorities. So, the Tribes was then to be fined by the Island Pond township. But the Tribes shepherds worked out a compromise with the town whereby the Tribes would sweep the streets and local highway for 2-3 weeks. So, that's what many of us members did everyday for awhile was sweep the winter sand off the local streets and highway, because the shepherds once again thought they were above the law, because they think they are Israel, God's Chosen Nation who can do what they want.
I think the women should be allowed to have their babies in the hospital if they want to. Having your baby in a hospital is often viewed as "lacking faith" or "failing to trust Our father." I'm very concerned about some of the still-born deaths that have occurred over the years. And, I'm concerned about the real motives for pressuring women to have their babies at home in the community. Is it about money, the hospital bill? Is it about the government not knowing about the birth? They say sisters can go to the hospital, but it's always in the context of "if she lacks faith..." What if she lacks faith in the community? While I lived in the community, the community was always right and the individual was always wrong if something negative happened. It's almost always the individual that gets blamed. They talk about "judgment beginning with the household of God." But seems like they really don't believe that. God will hold the communities accountable as the nation they claim to be, when they have hurt people, and never repented for it. And by the way, I couldn't even talk about any of this in the community. That would be considered "opposing the Body" or "opposing the Anointing" (AKA Gene Springs) and "opposing God." I'm tired of Yoneq and Haemeq being at the top of this organization as untouchable king and queen. Who are Gene and Marsha Spriggs really accountable to? I'd like to see Yoneq and Haemeq someday have to stand in the middle of a household circle and everyone tell them both everything that's wrong with them, like they have done to others. Maybe they should have to stand there naked like "rebellious" children have had to do in the past. Maybe they should also be locked in a dark closet for hours or be "scourged" from the back of their neck to their heels. I'd like to see their credit cards, airplane flights, and shopping trips taken away from them, and they really live like the new disciples that get recruited, instead of casually writing new teachings and Inter-Tribal news articles. I'd like to see Marsha Spriggs at the dish sink doing all the dirty dishes, doing tons of dirty laundry, changing diapers, and cleaning toilets, and finally someday hear her openly repent to the whole Body for the adulterous affair she had with a newer disciple, but never received any "discipline" for. Unbelievable. And if I could say one more thing. Yoneq and Ha'emeq don't have the power to forgive sins, but they act like it. Telling people this or that has been forgiven. Really? How do they know what God has forgiven? Why do they even need to open their sanctimonious mouths? They have become a defiled clergy priesthood. The very thing they condemn and repeatedly whip Christianity for. Instead of Yoneq posting little critical notes on things, like when someone forgets to put the lid on the mate pot. He should post a sticky note on himself that says, "Stop everything and look in the mirror and take a good look at what You have created...remember to do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
Janice, sounds like you're just a disgruntled ex-member. You knew what you were getting into. Get over it.
Community Shepherds are now searching rooms, I'm told by someone who has lived in one of the communities for several years. He said, "They have to..." IPods are of particular interest. One shepherd says, "No matter how often we've warned members against them, Ipods are still making their way into the community."
I'll never forget a sincere young man who moved into the Tribes, and the shepherd told him to throw all his books on God, religion, and meditation into the dumpster outside. Then later he was told he couldn't visit his brother in prison.
The community lifestyle cuts you off from your family and friends. They become your father, mother, and family. You serve them. They are literally God to you.
When my wife and I moved into the community some years ago, her teddy bear was taken to the wood-stove and burned up. And after wash day, some of the sisters had burned up some of my clothes without asking also! The Tribes are not so much about God as they are about the mind of Gene and Marsha Spriggs. The communities is their baby. They call it salvation. I call it slave labor in the name of God.
In the communities "we have not loved enough" which translated means: you have never done enough, you have never worked hard enough, you have never worked long enough, so get back to work, and don't stop until late at night for "we labor day and night for our Twelve Tribes."
"We have not loved enough."
In reality, we have not slept enough. We have not received proper medical care. We work while we are sick and exhausted, so we can expand as much as possible and recruit others to lead the same exhausted life, and we will teach them: "We have not loved/worked enough." So they can recruit other to do and teach the same.
One Tribal bi-polar sister lay down for a few minutes one afternoon, soon in came an older sister who declared, "What do you think this is? A holiday!"
(There are no holidays or vacations in the Tribes).
And somehow, God is happy with all of this exhaustion which in some mystical magical way will supposedly bring Yahshua/Jesus back to earth, so all the Tribes members can someday rule over the Universe and planets and the rest of us. Yes, the rest of us, if we escape the Eternal lake of Fire will be on work crews outside of the Holy City/New Jerusalem under the supervision of Twelve Tribes members.
One small thing the Tribes Apostle didn't mention to the members though, Jesus' disciple the beloved John didn't write the book of Revelation. In reality we don't know who wrote Revelation and a number of other books in the New Testament. So, would you believe and base teachings and doctrines upon anonymous Books?
See "MisQuoting Jesus" and other books by Bible scholar Bart D. Ehrman.
I'm all for the real Jesus, but I'm not for the Jesus/Yahshua that Gene Spriggs and other previous Christians have created.
Maybe it would be okay to share this. It is true. Shortly after my spouse and I joined the communities, we were asked how much money we had and encouraged to donate it to the organization. So we did. I did ask at the time, however, why new members give their money to the community, instead of to poor people in society or relief organizations. It was explained to me that my new brothers and sisters were poor, so giving to them would fulfill Jesus' instruction of selling all you have and giving to the poor. Well, at the time, that sounded reasonable to me. So I handed over our entire savings of about $3000. Soon after I was informed that the money would be used to send one of our elders Qatan and his wife Hasidah on a much needed time away. I swallowed hard. I didn't oppose this, but it really shook my faith. How could they take all that money and give someone wlse a vacation. Yes, I know, the Twelve Tribes doesn't have vacations, but some do! And I never saw this brother do any manual labor, none. This also bothered some of the other brothers who literally worked liked slaves 6 days a week. Qatan sat around writing Twelve Tribes Freepaper articles and went to meetings and presenting teachings to us revealed by God to Apostle Elbert Eugene "Gene" Spriggs aka "Yoneq". So we gave up our "rotten stinkin' lives in the world" and gave them all our money, and Qatan and Hasidah went on "a much needed time away." Ahh..such is the fallacy of any form of communism - communal living where everyone "shares" the money. What a fool I was. Maybe "someday you'll join us, and the world will live as one..." John Lennon was really high on something when he wrote that. What a sick joke and lie. You'll "live as one" all right, in poverty working like a slave.
I'm shocked "The Yellow Deli" hasn't been mentioned. I found this site because there's restaurant in the San Diego area (Vista, north county). It's funky, (admittedly) delicious, eclectic and VERY unique for the area. It's always SUPER crowded and I spend $12 for a soup and sandwich.
But that's besides the point. Of course the amish-hippie appearance immediately made me wonder what they're about as that is rarely seen in urban southern California. AND they're open 24 HOURS but only 5 days a week. They close friday night (presumably for the agave fest?) and re-open sunday night. I looked on yelp and read some reviews that mentioned they were part of twelve tribes, but I'm not one to judge on religion, so I didn't let anything like that stop me from going.
Since then, I've gone 5 or so times, take out very time. There are always a large number/high density of workers and after reading this I'm wondering if they're all getting paid legitimately. Anyways, tonight while picking up my order at The Yellow Deli, something struck me, a (VERY) pregnant worker. I thought, that's odd that someone that far along is running around a very busy kitchen, visible from the cash register area. Now from what I'm reading about the intense labor in this group it makes more sense now!
Something else I notice like a FLASHING FIREWORK is the vibe I get from the workers. The guys all make eye contact and one even did a flirty "double-eyebrow-raise" tonight. Was he trying to "recruit" me? There's always two guys there to greet at the door with great big (almost too big) happy warm smiles. As for the women, I feel very threatened and intimidated by them, despite the descriptions of them being submissive to their men. My first visit, I was second in line. The woman in front of me left, and as I came to the register the woman worker behind the counter did not acknowledge, look at, or greet me. I looked at her to try to make eye contact, but as I obviously stood there at the counter, she looked down at her papers then walked away. I saw her chatting with other women workers and laughing very hard and joyfully, but as I obviously stood there she took her time. Finally a male worker walked up to me gave me eye contact and a smile and asked if I had been helped. I told him of my order and he got it for me and began to ring me up. Then walked over the woman who had ignored me. She was older, maybe in her 50s or 60s and seemed "in charge". She asked what he was doing, and the younger man told her he was ringing me up, but he didn't charge me for the cheese, because he figured it was included. She seemed upset and asked to speak with him privately. As I waited she and him had a bit of a discussion about the transaction. Eventually she returned, I paid, and she barely spoke a word to me. It struck me as odd and was a bit off-putting. Since that first visit, ALL OF MY VISITS are this way. The two older "in charge" women are very cold and callous to me. The men are warm friendly flirty and helpful. The younger women are usually waitressing or in the kitchen (but never make eye contact or say welcome or goodbye as the men do). I haven't dealt much with the younger women (since I get take out).
(to be continued on next post)
(continued from previous post)
I know I'm not a first-hand member of the TT community or anything, but I just wanted to make you all aware of The Yellow Deli. Have their businesses been investigated by the bureaus to ensure all of their employees are being paid fairly with workers compensation/maternity leave?
Jesse (the previous post), I feel for you, I can't believe your generosity went to this Qatan guy's vacation. I APPLAUD you for realizing this was a (as you call it) "sick joke and lie". You are strong and smart (not a fool as you put it).
The Yellow Deli preaches on their website and even in their food that everything is love and that "God is Love." When I go in the restaurant I see customers (especially older ladies) enamored with the staff and their genuine-seeming "love" and (deliberate and over-the-top) SLOW-paced demeanor. I can see how nice, vulnerable people can fall in love with this "act" as I see it. After 5 or so visits I'm sad to say I can't go back to that place and support something that is CONFIRMED by actual former (some long-time) TT members! These posts are recent and I hope that the people that support their businesses (me until now finding this blog) will realize. Tag THE YELLOW DELI in your discussions/on your site so that people can find it.
Take a look at their "OUR HISTORY" on the Vista restaurant's site. It's different than other cities'.
Thanks for an intriguing read-up on the dark side of twelve tribes.
The workers are not paid any money, they only receive room and board. In one household once many years ago, each couple received a weekly stipend to go out and get an ice cream or save the money for personal needs, but that soon ended. You're basically working for free. You're usually up and about from 6am-11pm+, double work shifts are common. The communities I was in had no worker compensation insurance on the members. There's no health health insurance of any kind. None. Pregnant women generally do not go to any doctor or nurse throughout their pregnancy and delivery. They see pain and suffering as good things that God wants for you. The leader "Yoneq" Gene Spriggs and his wife Marsha could make things different, but they won't.
You get corrected and criticized often in the community and the kids get hit often for the smallest things.
But some people join, desperate for a new life of some kind. They make friends and feel loved.
Some members are happy and striving to do their best for God. But others, like the cold women you met, are very unhappy and over-worked. Some feel trapped as well.
The community has the feeling of security. You can feel like everything is taken cared of, but really it isn't. Often the leadership doesn't really know what they're doing.
I lived in one Twelve Tribes community where the goats were not properly cared for and started to get sick and die. I watched one mother goat painfully die, there wasn't even a gun around to put the poor thing out of its misery. I prayed an angel would come and end its suffering. Within a few minutes she passed on.
What most people don't really realize about the communities is that money disappears like the wind. There's usually not money for what you may need. One sister went for two years without a bathrobe. Our household at one point was so poor, that we only had $10 per week! allotted for each person's food and personal needs!
In another Tribal area, further back in time, all the married people had to sell their wedding rings.
But here's the kicker, all the communities no matter how in debt they are with home and business mortgages have to pay the "tithe" 10% for "evangelism" to reach out for "sheep" so that they can "give up their rotten' stinckin' lives in the world" and "come to where God lives", because "God doesn't live any other places on earth." Only in the Tribes. And then the new people get to add to the free labor force.
Are brothers and sisters sharing the wealth? No. The money disappears. No one gave me any to enjoy.
They talk about "laying wealth at the feet of the apostle(s)." Am sure Yoneq & H'emeq and Hakam & Havah Wiseman always have whatever they need.
If people just use a little common sense, they can see through the veneer of this life.
"We live just like the early Christians in the book of Acts..." Really? And what was that really like? Donations from other places had to be constantly taken to send to the communal churches in Jerusalem. Communism tends to make the majority of members dirt poor. It's sad. That's because theirs always leaders sucking up most of the money, either for themselves or for their dreams and the fulfillment or expansion of their dreams. The individual is neglected, the group/movement becomes supreme.
Because the Tribes are trying to expand too quickly, unnecessary suffering results. But I was told that unless everyone stays busy all during their waking hours, people tend to get themselves into trouble just like children.
So, get to work you sheep. "Submit to the anointing" aka Gene Sprigss aka Yoneq (& H'emeq). "You no longer need to be concerned about your own needs, the Body will take care of you." "You now have a will for your life.""Before you were lost in the world, but now you have been found by your brothers and sisters.""We don't go home for the holidays, this is our home, love is our home.""We came out of the world and into God's Kingdom, never to leave." "We gave up our own opinions. Dead men don't have opinions. We have died to the world system and our old life and are now living a new life for the one came and died and lives for us, Yahshua Messiah the King of Kings." "Take off your head (your thinking & opinions) and put it on a shelf, and take on the mind of the Body (Gene Spriggs' teachings." We will tell you how to think.""You will come when you are called, and go when you are sent." "It's doesn't matter how you feel." "We live by the objective Word.""We live in complete unity with one-another.""There is no other way to be saved." "Yahweh is raising up the Twelve Tribes as a light to the Nations." "Most of the people now living in the world will go to the Lake of Fire, but some will be saved." "We need to find our brothers and sisters in the world who are lonely and hurting and longing deep in their hearts for a new life of love." "We have given up everything to follow Yahshua." "We have given up homes, marriages, children, relatives, friends, money and possessions for something of far greater value."
"After dinner, Let's have some fellowship at the dish sink (cleaning piles of dirty dishes by hand), then you're needed at the Yellow Deli to work until midnight..." "Make sure you go right to bed after work, we don't want to be late for the morning gathering at 7AM."
My friend first told me about their life. He was very excited about it. He told of a people who loved each other. They worked and prayer together each day. They kept the Sabbath rest. They home-schooled their children. I wasn't interested at first. But my friend seemed so happy. It's like he found what he had been looking for his whole life.
First he was visiting Island Pond. All seemed well on the surface. They he went and actually moved into the community somewhere in Massachusetts. Then everything turned bad.
My friends happiness turned to sadness. Disbelief. He was crammed into a small single brothers room. Brothers were forced to use bunk-beds to share a very small room together. To avoid various air-born diseases from living so closely together. And to have enough fresh air to breath, they kept the windows opened all night in the middle of winter!
My friend was freezing cold most of the time. Then they would also go outside in their underwear in the winter weather to have snowball fights.
But the breaking point for my friend was the frequent cries throughout the house of children being hit. They would be punished with long flexible wooden rods for anything disobedient. Even for making funny faces, or refusing food when they were already full.
My friend had visited many monastic communities throughout the United States. but his experience at the Tribes communities was the worst.
He was also surprised to be told that he could never be saved by God, unless he joined the Tribes. That God's spirit only lived their and everyone else in the whole world believed wrong, except the first believers in Jesus centuries ago.
My friend left and went back to being Catholic and helping street people at a Dorthy Day catholic Worker community.
By then I had begun visiting the communities. My wife and I were out of work and desperate for a new kind of life. The Tribes warmly welcomed us. They seemed happy and kind at first. But soon things got ugly. It was all about doing exactly what you're told. Every doctrine must be believed. We were told to stop thinking for ourselves. We were in the Body (Tribes) now. Each day someone else would have "a will" for our lives.
Our incoming mail was examined. Our telephone calls were listened to. And we worked like dogs for free.
The Tribes people at that time lived in homes that they did not properly maintain. They actually trashed and worn out house so bad in Island Pond, that some were simply abandoned and they moved into other houses.
I've never forget the looks on the children's faces as they stood on commune houses porches with nothing to do. No toys to play with. And any kind of disobedience was met with the rods of correction.
I'm back "in the world" now and have found that people in the "world system" can be just as kind as loving as in "New Israel" Tribes. Some people in the Tribes can be pretty mean and cold-hearted. It's scary what some people have gone through. Going without right medical care.
On the good side, there can be some very happy times in the Tribes, and some people find friendship and a marriage partner and things are better for some people in the Tribes, than if they were drug addicted on the street and things like that.
Maybe someday the communities can be different. When they no longer think they're the only ones. When they really start taking care of each other. And doing the things they say they believe in.
Right now, I no longer trust them. I've seen too much go wrong. Later members say it never happened. Yoneq taught us it was okay to "not tell the truth" if it hurt the community in any way. That others "in the world" may not always deserve the truth.
If you want to avoid a lot of hurt and heartache, I would stay away from these people.
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