Sunday, August 20, 2006

Blue wounds

Reading as much as I have of the Twelve Tribes' literature over the past few weeks has been an interesting experience. But digging through garbage has its hazards and what I’ve just found has made me ill. Proceed through what follows at your own risk.

The “Twelve Tribes Teachings” site (for which there is a link on this page) contains material the group wisely doesn’t put into their recruiting magazines. This is stuff that was never supposed to leave their compounds to be seen by prying eyes like mine, but that has been smuggled out one way or another. Apparently the TT elders use these “teachings” to instruct the underlings from time to time. I have no reason to think that these are not 100% genuine. In fact this one, “Execution of Justice” was the subject of conversation and mentioned by name by ex-TTers on a discussion board. Even without such external evidence of its authenticity, who could possibly make up stuff this weird and sick?

The entire thing is available here.

I’ll reproduce just two short sections of it. Here’s the beginning:

Teaching: Execution of Justice (Letter from Elbert concerning discipline and the seed of Abraham)

David Jones,

The execution of justice is joy for the righteous, but is a terror to the workers of lawlessness. A man who drifts from understanding will rest in the assembly of the dead (Pr 21:15-16). He who spares his rod hates his son. This is a high standard of justice; many will be terrified at the standard in the last days and will desert that standard. They will drift away from what they have heard. But he who loves his son will be “diligent to discipline him.” The ground which drinks the rain which often falls upon it produces vegetation, but if it yields thorns and thistles it is worthless and ends up being burned. "Diligent to discipline” and “disciplines diligently” can be kingdoms apart in their meanings. We may be diligent to discipline, but the discipline that we administer may not be with diligence within the standard we have received. The difference is according to our hearts (Ex 19:5).

Unless your son has blue wounds, by this standard, you know what kind of a standard is in you — it is the spirit that hates your son. If one is overly concerned about his son receiving blue marks you know that he hates his son and hates the word of God. There is a destructive spirit in him and somehow he can’t detect it. It is like a false shepherd who has a ravenous spirit within, yet he covers it with a mask of meekness and mildness. Poverty and shame will come upon him who neglects discipline.

Who is Elbert? None other than the man who thinks he's Elijah, Elbert Eugene Spriggs. (There is no date on this document, but it seems to predate his adoption of the name "Yoneq.") I have no idea who David Jones is/was. I hope there was some sense left in him and that this letter spurred him to take his family out of harm's way & maybe give Presbyterianism a second try.

I find yet more troubling what's to come: Spriggs practicing what he preaches. The authorship of the teaching seems to change after Spriggs signs off with this information about how he's thrashed a little girl named Hephzibah.

Tell Hannah that Hephzibah is like Paul and says: “From now on let no one cause me trouble, for I bear on my body the brand marks of Yahshua.” They are blue and she is receiving her discipline. She is growing up to be that last generation, being prepared, even in her nervous system, to be in that hour of supreme demand.

I dare not imagine the state of this poor girl's nervous system, especially after learning what we are told next. An unidentified author fills in the details of what the little girl did to deserve punishment and how Spriggs responded, likening the situation to the story of Abraham and Isaac. Remember, this act is recorded and presented as an example of proper parenting! Several ex-TTers have informed me that Spriggs is not the biological father of this child.

The reason Isaac was so willing to let his father sacrifice him was because he had been raised his whole life knowing that he did not belong to himself, but belonged to his father, and he was not living for himself, but living for his father. Hephzibah is coming to understand that she is living for her father and belongs to him. The other day she was having great difficulty being obedient to his command: not to suck her thumb in bed. Elbert asked her to stick out her thumb because he was going to cut it off. He took a huge pair of scissors and came toward her. She was terrified, but (after receiving her discipline) she willingly stuck out her thumb to be cut off rather than let it cause her to stumble in her obedience to her father. Elbert didn’t actually cut it off, but he wants Hephzibah to understand that it is better to have your hand cut off now rather than later. He wants her to be saved. It is absolutely necessary to raise our children to know that they do not belong to themselves, but to their father.

The Horror. And there is a subtext here that goes beyond child-rearing. "Authority" is a fractal and is absolute to TTers: As a child must show complete submission to the authority of parents, so a wife must to her husband, so the initiates must to the TT elders, so must all TTers show to Spriggs. And of course Spriggs, the prophet, answers to God. The message is that each member of the flock, just like the little girl, belong to Spriggs and they had better unquestioningly submit to whatever he demands.

I need to state here that I have no evidence that anything constituting child abuse of the physical or psychological kind described above is going on at the Ithaca Twelve Tribes community. Of course, I hope there is not. But this "teaching" is what they have in place of Dr. Spock's childcare manual, written by their infallible leader. It would be nearly impossible for an outsider to detect were such abuse going on. As Kathy Cunningham, a Vermont state trooper, told a Newsweek reporter back in 1984 after authorities raided the Twelve Tribes community at Island Pond, "They've taken away all our normal ways to detect child abuse. There are no teachers to report scars, no doctors to report anything funny."

41 comments:

Cortez said...

A boycott is an excellent way to stop a company, or any party for that matter, that is doing wrong things and producing revenue by distributing a product or service of some kind.
So enough of the P.C. jargon, a boycott of the Twelve Tribes products is an excellent endevour. They are one of the most detrimental mind control cults on the planet and they are hurting people. Besides that, for me the most horrible aspect of their communities is that they blaspheme The Creator and destroy really good peoples' Faith in The Creator, The Living Spirit of The Messiah.
Regardless of whether you believe in The Creator and The Living Spirit, these people are ruining peoples' lives in more physical, mental and spiritual ways as well. They dictate how they must eat and their medical/health care practises and abilities, or availabilities. As mentioned they teach racism, undeniably. Some people that need certain medical treatments are denied and called faithless and treated like real burdens, and made to feel guilty while others have prescriptions for drugs to treat depression and other mental disease that are probably just keeping them mentally ill rather than really treating the problems. Some members' credit has been ruined and they are told that personal is of the world and not needed by them now in the communities. Some are kicked out for unfounded reasons, and even deceptive, or cruel reasons and given nothing to re-establish themselves in society with. Just to name a few facts about them.
I realize that this entry is somewhat discombobulated but I don't really have time to edit and write a really ordered and coherant piece here now.
Boycotting these people would be the thing to do by everyone especially true followers of The Way, The Truth and The Life.
I also think we should all start using biodiesel, ethynol, and electrical vehicles and produce our electricity with solar panels, and boycott OPEC and all the oil mongers and their corrupt CEO's and chronies and offshoot companies also. This would free up our country to work on real homeland securities and independence once again, but that's a different subject and thread and you can see that I am a radical and an activist. I do use biodiesel in my vehicle and sailing vessel.
I believe wholeheartedly the words of our Elohim and The Messiah and know that they are One. I know that the media are lieing and Hollywood and other TV producers make 99.9% garbage. We homeschool our children. We practice discipline and Order in our family and household. I agree with many of the teachings of the TT but these people are being mislead by liers and dictators, mainly Yoneq and his "wife." They are some of the most incredibly damned hypocrits on the planet if they don't change, confess and repent. The Scripture says that you will know them by their fruit and I am not judgeing nor condemning them, I have seen and am in touch with many of their fruit. They are recovering by the Grace of our Father from TT's rotteness.
The TT pay the people in their businesses nothing. Sure they "provide"their needs and in is "voluntary," but honestly it is manipulation and control and there are certain peple in certain positions which have way more than their needs and there are many that don't even have the food and/or underware that they need very much.
Some of their children are abused and definitlely deprived of very simple things. I homeschool and keep my children from being poluted by the "world" but my children play soccer with the teams at the YMCA and ride bicyles ask the TT what the "wheel spirit" is and why children can't ride bikes. ? Because they might escape!

Cortez said...

Sorry, bicycles.Ooops. That's not my only typo. I meant underwear. Anyway, I hope the fews points I made are clear. There are some good people there and they need to be helped OUT. Yoneq and his "wife need to turn from the self-centered, pride filled deceptions and be Free; Truth, Whole Truth and nothing but The Truth.

Anonymous said...

Hey cortez! Good to see you here-
I believe we've met.

I agree after living there many years, everything you say (about them)is true, and everything I've seen on this blog about them is true too.

Black and blue marks are very common, and if there are concerns about outside family members finding out (or doctors) I have seen two different familes be directed to spank the children on the soles of their feet. These were both children of household heads, and they did as they were directed.

That is just way too far.

I personally left over the abuse issues,not spanking per se, but abuse, nevertheless.

Anonymous said...

Oh yeah-Yoneq has no children in the communities. That was the daughter of Bucky Harris.

Aloysius Horn said...

Cortez and anonymous: I really appreciate the two of you taking the time to leave your comments. None of us who have started this group are former members or have any insider knowledge of Twelve Tribes. We stand to learn much from you and others who have such knowledge. Please continue to monitor our postings on this blog and provide us with your insights. While our reasons to object to the beliefs and practices of the Twelve Tribes are well founded, we don’t want to be unfair to them by recirculating untruths. Please point out anything we don’t get right, as well as what we do. Cortez, I think you make a number of good points. I think some of the most effective critics of TT are people of faith. I saw that at the TT “forum” on the Ithaca Commons on Aug.12.

Anonymous said...

pretty sad to see how you just take what you read and hear and pass it on... this website is a load of crap for any one with any degree of intelligence... anyone deceived by this website is certainly unwise... it is indeed you people who are the haters... anyone with intelligence can see that... you deceive the unwise... that is your path... sad indeed.... your interpretation of their life couldnt be further from the truth... its obvious you are some do gooder democrat progressive type thinking hes gonna change the world by passing on some unverified garbage about a people you dont understand... i see you crawling around on the web now trying to exploit ex-members for your cause... what a loath... you and bob pardon have alot in common... you two should talk about how you exploit others... you could learn alot from one another !

Aloysius Horn said...

Unlike Spriggs who hates groups of people for their immutable characteristics (color of skin, sexual orientation), I hate empty and discredited ideas that hurt people, for instance Biblical justification for racism & child beating. I don't hate the people in Twelve Tribes most of whom probably join the group with the best of intentions. I welcome criticism from TT members or sympathizers here. But instead of just calling this site "a load of crap," and ad hominem attacks on me, how about addressing some of the issues raised? Two former TTers who posted comments above indicate that so far we've got things right about Twelve Tribes. I hope we continue to. I can understand that it must irk current TTers to see their prophet's vile teachings exposed on the web.

wonderingaboutalot said...

I saw that you asked for correction if you got something wrong about tt beliefs. well here is some....Yoneq does not claim to be Elijah. The y teach that the tt as a whole come in the spirit of Elijah.

Anonymous said...

Actually wonderingaboutalot..that teaching has come about just recently. Several people have left over it.

Aloysius Horn said...

wonderingboutalot: Thanks for your input. I admit my claim that Spriggs thinks he is Elijah is poorly sourced...I read a discussion of ex-TTers on this topic and came away with that impression. Isn't it true that TT believes that a prophet, thought to be Elijah, must return in the end days to prepare the way for the return of Yashua and that this is thought to be Yoneq? Interesting to hear that there is a new teaching on the subject within the group. I would like to hear more about that. Thank you for pointing out what might be an incorrect claim. Whether I got this wrong or not, it is irrelevent to my purpose in this article, which was to highlight Sprigg's views and practices concerning child discipline. What I would like to hear from former and current TTers is how closely most parents follow Spriggs' "Execution of Justice" teaching.

Anonymous said...

Hey Aloysius! Your profile doesnt come up here on the site and the ex members are asking for your private addy. Can you drop by and leave it? Or email me if you wish...
Thanks! nabashalam@yahoo.com

Anonymous said...

I meant ex members on fact net...

Cortez said...

Yes, please Anonymous, address the issues. What are the TT's teaching about black people? Ham? The "wheel spirit"? Why are children not allowed to ride bicycles? Are people paid for their work? Do the TT pay their taxes righteously according to the laws of the land they live in? I mean above board, each person pays taxes on the income they produce in the businesses and not including people who stay home and do household chores as people employed by the Common Grounds Cafe? They aren't employed there and are averaged in to calculate taxes, just to name a few. Submit to autority. Give to Cesar what is Cesar's remember the words of Yahushua? I guess Yoneq has some selective interpretation of those quotes of The Master, Yahushua.Interpretaions to suite his purposes of power and the desire of money. Does Yoneq make sure all of the group have all in common as according to the Body of Yahushua from the beginning? Why are many people lacking in a group with some much wealth? Yahushua is not waiting for "His people to get it together" that He will come at that time. Our Father has a certain time when The Messiah will return whether the body/Temple is rebuilt according to His perfect will or not. The TT looks like every other mainstream church of ?Babylon. And He says come out of her, My People.
Oooops, forgive me for getting a little carried away in The Truth.
Please address some of the real issues like the ones mentioned above, oh, and maybe more importantly, elders of the TT lying, bold faced lying and justifying it as being okay when talking to outsiders ie. people not of the annointing. Address that teaching please.

Cortez said...

Your the unwise, or rather deceived, attempting to deceive others.Your still trying to strain nats while swallowing camels. Please open your mnd, confess, repent and receive salvation, daily, whole-heartedly, please.

Anonymous said...

On the topic of Eliyah-

This comes in a sort of sideways fashion- of course Yoneq is not going to come right out and say-" I am Eliyah- the great and powerful Apostle of Oz!"
He is humble. He wants you to connect the dots yourself, with a little help from his underling apostles.

So here are the dots we had to connect over the years, to get to the place where he was considered Eliyah...

First- He taught us that the community is "the restoration of the Messianic Jewish New Testament Church". Check it out- it's on Wiki now!
Second- He told us that "This is why Eliyah must come- to restore the church of the Isreal of YHWH."(the Apostate Isreal Today teaching)
Third- He taught us that Eliyah gathered the twelve stones to make the altar for sacrifice. Those stones were the tribes and we were the wet wood to be layed upon it as the sacrifice. He told us to make sure we taught this to our wives and children . (The Nucleus Teaching, and the Eliyah teachings)
Fourth-He said if you don't receive Eliyah you don't receive the annointing (And we all know who that is....) and your children were accursed- no hope. (On the Death of Mary Wiseman -Apostolic Meeting Notes.)
Fifth- (and more currently) He started teaching that we had no leader except Yahshua, (that's not new)and that he (Yoneq) was no different than John the Baptist, simply a forerunner, or Paul, an apostle whose authority came from his fruit, which was the church . The teachings about knowing who John the Baptist actually was, if you have ears to hear, that is, were starting to pop up in many a Breaking of Bread.

(sidenote, Yoneq would also get highly irate if anyone named their child Elijah or Eliyah, and make them change it.)

So WHO put the real church back together again? Yoneq. Who is the only one God has spoken to since the fall of the 1st church? Yoneq. Who brought the annointing in the form of hundreds (thousands) of child training teachings and 3ED teachings for the classroom to turn the hearts of the children to their parents and parents to their children? Yoneq

Whose word are you accursed if you don't receive and cling to? Hakam's? Chobab's? Elishevah's? Ben-Chesed's? Nun's?

No. Yoneq. Oh yeah-and his wife of course. :)

Anonymous said...

I feel that the facts of silly "wheel spirit" moritoriums, blacks being an accursed race from the time of Ham and averaging incomes across the board to pay, or rather, not pay taxes are real red flags and deceptions taught and adhered to in the "communities" but are really nothing as real, important and severe as the teachings and conclusions stated in the previous post. Yoneq is most obviously deceived and deceiving others whether he is doing it with full knowledge or not he is in big trouble according to The Scripture. If he and his wife don't do some sincere confessing and repenting, with obvious Fruit, and turn from the dark, evil ways they are in eternal trouble.

wonderingaboutalot said...

who has left as a result of that teaching about yoneq being elijah. And are they going to post the teaching on the internet.

Anonymous said...

fucking pothetic idiots! get a life!

Full O Faith said...

Here's a classic picture of a typical family situation in the Twelve Tribes:

A couple and their children joined the Community. They gave everything to the Tribes after liquidating the husband's buiding contractor business, or other self-employed job. They were very disillusioned with "mainstream churches" and wanted fellowship with real believers out from under the umbrella of paganism and false doctrines. They wanted to live like the first believers in Acts.

Once they got situated with a group, let's say one of the several in Massachusetts, they were ready to "give their lives" for their fellow Community members. This translates to: the husband goes to work wherever he is most needed, whether it has anything to do with his actual skills or not. The husbands, especially new recruits, are worked 18 hours a day. The wives are put to work in the kitchen or doing the tons of laundry, etc. If they have small children, the children stay with the mother all day. If the children are of school age, they get sent to training, or homeschooled by the mom if that particular community doesn't have designated "teachers" for the children.

Let's say this couple are born again believers, and that is how they came to faith in Yahshua. Well, they are told they need to renounce that because they were deceived. See, the TT believe you are really not born again or "part of the anointing" (their anointing) until you are baptised into their Community.

The wife and children rarely get to see the husband, because he is out working from early morning until dinner time (7pm or so). The wife doesn't get to spend to much time with her children, because she is busy helping with the mountains of housework that is required to run a group home. The children are not allowed to play with balls or any type of truck, car or bicycle. Their reading is limited to approved books and they are not allowed to use their imaginations. If they do something wrong, any adult in the Community is allowed to "discipline" them with the stick.

By the time the husband gets home, the kids barely get time to spend with him, and they don't get to spend time with him in the morning either because he has to leave so early to work. Family devotions are discouraged because community members, especially new converts need interpretation of the scriptures in order to understand it correctly (according to Yoneq and other elders).

Family autonomy in the TT is a joke. A family owns nothing, because whatever they had they gave up when they joined. Their survival (food, clothing, shelter) becomes dependent on the Community, so they have to subject themselves to the "shepherd" of the household (elder or boss) and cannot make decisions for themselves, because they have no money to carry out any decisions, and anything that does not get approval from the elder is forbidden. If they go against what an elder says, they will be disciplined, which means you can't celebrate the Sabbath with everyone else, and everyone gives you the silent treatment. Furthermore, if they see that you are actually trying to maintain some type of order in the family and do what you think is best anyway, you are likely to be cut-off by the community, which means you have to leave. If they cut you off, they don't give you any money or any way to leave, you just have to walk away with the clothes on your back.

I know many people in the TT and who have left. I think of some of the wonderful families that are there and my heart aches for them, because I know what they go through. For the most part, the folks who are part of the TT are very honest, hardworking, calm and generous people. A lot of them have a hard time stomaching the teachings like the Ham teaching and the child discipline stuff, however they are between a rock and a hard place, and it's not worth it for them to rebel against those teachings because their survival depends on their submission to authority.

If you ever visit one of the Communities they will be super nice to you, feed you, invite you to stay for as long as you want or need, give you gifts, let you stay in the nicest rooms, let you eat for free or half price at their restaurants, give you cookies and bread, and basically give you the royal treatment. They bombard you with love and make you think that it's like this every day. But in reality, it's not. It's just a way that they court new recruits and make them think, "Hey, these people really are living out the book of Acts chapter 2."

Lots of TT'ers will point out that obviously God (YHWH) has blessed them and what they are doing because look at all the properties and businesses they own and how many new people are joining. This is a twisted version of the prosperity message from mainstream churches. Also, following that line of logic, then the Catholic church, the Moonies and the Church of Scientology are also blessed by God because look at all the properties, businesses and new converts they have!!

I support the boycott of all Twelve Tribes businesses because of the following:
1. they prosper because of slave or coerced labor.
2. they are really an outreach to the world in order to gain new recruits.
3. they portray a false view of what the TT is about and have no qualms about recruiting new members who are deceived by this false view of the day to day life of the Community.

Because of their sincere belief in the Bible/Holy Scripture TT'ers buy into what they are taught: the only way to be saved is to be part of the body of the Messiah, which according to them, is exculsively the Twelve Tribes. So, to get recruits/converts to the TT however they need to get them(coercion, deception, fear, etc.) is for the recruits/converts own good in the end.

People need to know what it's really like for TT'ers, why its called a cult and why we need to prevent them from gaining new members. The efforts of those who have posted this blog are a positive step towards this, especially when done in a respectful, loving manner.

Anonymous said...

Yay! Could not agree more! I had the same experience there with my wife and children myself.

Aloysius Horn said...

Dear Full of Faith: Thank you for describing life inside Twelve Tribes with such eloquence and compassion. We appreciate your support of our boycott effort. As an outsider, nothing I can write can carry the force of what you posted here. Thank you also for the reminder that the average TT adherent is not responsible for and may not even care for the teachings on race and child discipline. These people are to a large extent victims who deserve our sympathy and help if we can give to them.

Anonymous said...

how wonderfull for you to speak your bullshit on behalf of everyone in the twelve tribes... thats why you are not there... people like you are not tolerated because of your pothetic selfishness...

Cortez said...

Pathetic, it's p-a-t-h-e-t-i-c. Did you miss a few training days when you were supposed to be practicing spelling or do you all just not practice spelling in training?
I am sure you could tie it into a study of the Greek, Latin, Aramaic, or some kind of original, root language study, especially with the word path-etic. You probaly don't study languages either, right? What exactly do you study in training? Obviously you are very well practiced in foul mouth laguage usage and anger, insults, ego, pride, treating others with complete disrespect, etc... I imaginine you graduated Ultra Suma Kum Latte', or is it Suma Kum Mate', in your class. Where should we send a graduation present for you Anon'?

Sorry about all the sarcasm. I usually try to get a little smile or laugh out my friends.
The point is that the negative energy and insults of this person seem to be typical results of the attitude and spirits after being beaten down by the TT. Please pray for them and boycott their products and services everywhere, and do all we can to Love and help the people that will come out of her, thanks be to Yahweh, our Elohim, The Living Creator.

P.S. Anon, the negative garbage is truly a waste of time and energy. Even people that don't know The Creator (yet) know that simple fact/principle. Though it does help us show how evil and harmful the TT way of life and spirit is. Thank you. Good (Yahweh/God/Light) always triumphs over evil (Satan/demons/darkness).

P.P.S. Am I rejoicing in the wrong? I am just trying to be seriously funny and become as much of what they are for them. "Meet them where they are."

Anonymous said...

ROTFL!! Thanks Cortez! That was great! : )

Anonymous said...

im not in the TT nor was I ever - jackass

Anonymous said...

just a prime example of how you all assume and rationalize crap that doesnt even exist... idiots...

Anonymous said...

Corporal punishment of minors may be distastful to more than a few people but it is L-E-G-A-L. Deal with it!

Anonymous said...

Amish and indigenous peoples practice corporal punishment also.
Time to be inclusive ain't it??

Anonymous said...

Corporal punishment is legal, child abuse is not. You deal with it.

Anonymous said...

Psychologist and pediatric physicians have created an INDUSTRY of abusing MILLIONS of our children and youth with chemical straight-jackets. Suicide and long-term injury are well documented. You've obviously lost your focus by targeting a community who practices wholesome living. SHAME!

Anonymous said...

Child Abuse?

Links to any Convictions of 12 Tribes members locally please.

Aloysius Horn said...

What constitues child abuse and what evidence would be required to convict someone of child abuse in NY or another state may be different things.

The US Gov't's Child Welfare Information Gateway defines physical abuse of children as "physical injury (ranging from minor bruises to severe fractures or death) as a result of punching, beating, kicking, biting, shaking, throwing, stabbing, choking, hitting (with a hand, stick, strap, or other object), burning, or otherwise harming a child. Such injury is considered abuse regardless of whether the caretaker intended to hurt the child."

Intentionally inflicting "blue wounds" on a child with a switch certainly qualifies as abuse under this defintion. I think most reasonable people would agree that this is abuse. We are not talking about "spanking" in the conventional sense here. A blue welt of the sort Spriggs says is the indicator of adequate punishment is the result of subdermal tissue damage and bleeding.

Additionally, and adult telling a child that they're going to cut off their thumb, as Spriggs did, is psychological/emotional abuse. Do you disagree?

In NY state law, child abuse is defined as follows: "An 'abused child' is a child whose parent or other person legally responsible for his/her care inflicts upon the child serious physical injury, creates a substantial risk of serious physical injury, or commits an act of sex abuse against the child."

I would hope that a NY state judge would regard "blue wounds" on a disciplined child a serious injury and convict the perpetrator. The chances that a judge will ever see evidence of such injuries to TT children are small, because no one mandated by the state to report abuse (teachers, doctors, social workers) ever examines the children. The TT children I've seen in public are always well covered by their clothing.

As I said in the article, I can't possibly know what is going on at the Ithaca TT community. No one on the outside knows. We do, however, know what Spriggs teaches his followers to do.

Anonymous said...

This man was convicted on two counts of abuse. You can verify it on the Florida Sexual Offender's Website if you want.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/tribes/tribes59.html

Glen said...

A reasonable person would conclude that lacking evidence of the crime, regardless of Spriggs teachings, means you're grasping at straws. If Old Testament books are valued ANY Christian or Jewish family with kids could face such baseless accusations. Why not include ALL believers?

Anonymous said...

"Why not include all believers?"

Well, that's a totally legit question.

I think what is trying be communicated here is that *teaching* that *abuse* is ok is not ok, because it is not legal.

Teaching that corporal punishment is ok really *is* ok because as Americans, we have chosen that method to be a legal option to raise our children.

NOT ABUSE. There *is* a line.

There really is a difference, and if you don't know that I sure feel sorry for your kids.

Most "Christian or Jewish families" are not going to teach thousands of people that it is ok to beat their children until they are black and blue, or threaten to cut off their thumbs if they suck them, which we know Yoneq 100% advocates, because his OWN words say just that (which is fact, not a baseless accusation).

Most believing familes are not going to protect child molesters either.Apparently, there is clear(criminal) evidence for that as well. That is usually illegal too.

And you know what? If I knew that there were Christian/Jewish/Hindu/Whatever families that DID do that, then I would boycott their businesses as well.

So you see? The issue is not corporal punishment in itself, or even the occurance of it in the tribes.

It is child abuse, the teaching of it, among the other things that hurt people that is advocated/taught there, no matter how cool and groovy a people they are.

Physical, emotional, educational, mental, and sexual.

Real *abuse* as defined by our own laws as Americans.

Anonymous said...

You mean those polite, open and cheerful kids who mingled among the customers and their young uns' at Mate' Factor this afternoon are victems of physical, emotional and mental abuse?? Wow.

And Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone shooter of President Kennedy.

Riigght.

Anonymous said...

You forgot sexual abuse too.

Moderation Michael said...

Yes indeed...Oops!

Young female victems of sexual abuse are prone to behave and dress in a provocative manner.

Their modest attire threw me a curve ball!

Anonymous said...

"Young female victems of sexual abuse are prone to behave and dress in a provocative manner."

And Lee Harvey Oswald was the lone shooter of President Kennedy.

Riigght.

(And it's *victims* love, not *vectims*. Please, we all can understand a typo here and there, but you really have been so predictable. Try spellcheck. Not an attack, just a friendly suggestion if you want to be taken seriously).

So.

You know for 100% sure, that one of the girls that you saw in the cafe weren't one of the victims in the newspaper article.

And this was because they were not promiscuous towards you or in front of you?

Is that really what you were trying to say? You can still apologize for that, because I don't think you really meant that.

Think about it.

What if they don't OWN any provactive clothes? I mean, how likely is *that*- in the community specifically, that a young girl is going to wake up that morning and dress like a little ho and walk into a Common Ground establishment strutting her stuff... oh- after showing up at the minchah, that is?

Give me a break.

Obviously you have had no experience or training in this field of sexual molestation or even the TT. Do you understand the heartbreak around this type of abuse at all?

What if the victims have been leveled or have had shoved everything down inside them like so many people (everywhere!)do when they have been hurt in this way?

What if they don't know what has happened to them was even wrong because they are supposed to obey without question those in authority over them?

What if they were just being pretenders around you like most community members are taught to do with guests?

What if one of the children molested had been a boy?

According to your theory, shouldn't he be promiscuous too?

Your arguments lack logic in the most fundamental ways.

Please try a little harder to be congruent.

Moderated Michael said...

Daily lunch hour on the Commons provides a casual observation that while the Factor's noontime - 1pm biz appears to be increasing greatly, this blog is drying up faster than a Wegmans bagel at midnight. How fitting! Now I shall gather my varied 'profiles' and say goodbye. Enjoyed you're dog and cart show. It HAS been fun.

Jacob said...

Hi, I am the one who first read this letter from a computer in their Arcadia, Fl and decided it needed to be brought to public scrutiny.

As Mevesaer, a community leader in California, brought to my attention: There are few in the Communities whom have ever read this letter. The letter had great impact on me. Until I read this, I could in conscience defend the TT members as sincere as much as I may have not fit in. After reading this letter, All of the abuses of authority and physical abuses that I had heard whispered and justified inside the Twelve Tribes were explained.

The spirit of these abuses had been passed on by Yoneq, their most trusted leader.

David Jones is Yonah, a member from the groups beginnings considered to have evangelistic and prophetic giftings. I spoke with him personally in W. Palm Beach about an incident that occurred years after this letter. He was not doing well spiritually and a community coordinator believed his boys had committed a wrong and they failed to confess; the boys were locked in a basement each day, punished, and given minimal food for weeks on end. It was discovered they did not commit the wrong. Yonah told me that if this occurred today, he would call the police.... then he wanted to submit to authority as they were being taught in those days. One boy has left, the other has stayed.

Regardless if they see it, this spirit of following authority even to the harm of those they love is what Yoneq has taught.

Reference:
http://www.twelvetribesteachings.com/pdf/To%20Robert%20Chambers%20from%20Elbert.pdf

The Authority and Child Training Teachings

All the rest of these arguments from theological, PC, or personal perspectives are just distractions from the day-to-day realities and those whom have been effected.